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New score thread broke.. so
Anarchist wrote
at 11:16 AM, Saturday February 3, 2007 EST
Well I'll go against the grain it seems and say truthfully that after playing many games I really hate the new system.

I'll try labeling my reasons with numbers.

1) The new game is LESS strategic. How? Well you can only play one way, aggressively. Seriously if you try and play a defensive game you'll AS score will get raped and even if you finish 3rd or 2nd you'll lose points cause AS score seems more heavily weighted than the traditional positional score. While you could argue that you had to play defensively in the old game, I'd simply state that you was incorrect and that strategic attacking at the right time was key to the old game. I should know I'm a good player.

2) The game is MORE luck based. Well this comes from the fact that you have to attack more since joining your territories is even more important. And by attack more I guess what I'm saying is make more risky attacks. In the old game I would NEVER attack a territory with the same number of dice.(discounting 2vs2s) e.g. 4vs4. In this game you simply have to, hell sometimes you have to attack with less dice! Clearly this style of play is dependent more on luck than the safe style of the current game.

2.1) Again backing up point 2 is the undeniable fact that dice placement is more important. Most players who have played the new game would agree with this I would think. Obviously since dice placement is random (well mostly) this increases the amount of luck involved in the game. Again this is an offshoot of the more aggressive game.

3) Alliances are screwed. Its obvious to those that have been playing that alliances take place less often in the new game. Now I wouldn't say this is because of the new game, no this is merely a period of adapting due to the fact that the best alliances are different to the last game due to the AS score system. However... I've given much thought to this and I can now say with fair confidence that the 1900 tables are gonna be terrible. Its because when you really think about it, as the 1900+ players must, allying between the 2 biggest and most far apart players is always the best alliance. While this is bad you could argue that this has always been the situation and your kinda right. BUT when the two big guys ally together all the smaller guys usually ally and fight back. Again the AS system would greatly discourage this method, fighting among yourselves would likely end in a much better score for yourself or on the coin flip if the small guys did ally together and win your score still wouldn't be as good as it would the old system.

4) This point isn't so much against the new system as it is against the ill logic shown towards the old system when discussing the 8vs8 game. People are always saying the 8vs8 end games are terrible and luck based. Now honestly how many 8vs8 games where there has been a clear leader have you ever seen switch. A few maybe. But 90% of the time the guy who's got the most stacks wins. Who has the most stacks? The guy who played better. How is this lucky?

4.1) Oh and even though some think otherwise the 8vs8 end game is still alive and well in the new game so don't even bother trying to say theres less luck because it isn't there anymore. It is.


Ok, so I'm left thinking, what is better? Well away people do get screwed like they should and... no thats it. Thats the only thing I prefer in this game and that could have been implemented in a far less game changing fashion than this.

Now I'm left thinking why the game has been changed in this way at all. I mean the scoring although different isn't really "different". Do badly and you score badly, do well and you score well. Essentially the scoring is the same but the style of play has been changed completely. I'll leave you with a good piece of advice, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

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Ryan wrote
at 4:57 PM, Saturday February 3, 2007 EST
Its also important to note that the game rules have not changed a bit. Its the exact same game.

The way we measure skill has changed. The rating system is meant to measure skill at the game.
Ryan wrote
at 5:01 PM, Saturday February 3, 2007 EST
in response to
#2.1

I can see your point with this. In the current game you can sit on bad dice placement. Build your stacks, truce your neighbors and hope they carry you through to a 2nd or 3rd place. 1) this annoys other players and 2) the current rating system measures how well you use this tactic and rewards you.
Alpha1 wrote
at 1:16 AM, Sunday February 4, 2007 EST
in response to
#2.1

-in the current game, if you have a bad placement and if you are the only one without a territority with 5 dice to start with, the best STRATEGY is to play defensively and have alliance with others. I don't see anything wrong with that. Who are the people who get annoyed? Why is their opinion weight more than the opposition? Why do we need to change because 'people are annoyed'

what is the goal of having a new scoring system anyway? is it to make it more fair for EVERYBODY or just to please those who are annoyed with the current system?

-the new system basically said you are dead if you have a bad placement. there's no room for any tactics and skills.

i do agree with some aspect of the new scoing system, such as using average size to determine your score. but it is not perfect and it creates a whole new set of problems.

essentially, you are just replacing problems/unfairness with new problems/unfairness.
fuzzycat wrote
at 3:12 AM, Sunday February 4, 2007 EST
@dice lord: in Nascar racing, 2nd and following places are determined by a series of factors, like best round, numbers of rounds beeing ahead, etc...

Otherwise football is 1 team vs 1 team game, so you can compare it to a 7 people against each other game.
Ryan wrote
at 9:04 AM, Sunday February 4, 2007 EST
In response to alpha,

I'm not siding with any one person here, what I'm trying to do is make a more balanced game. The annoyed people in the current are annoyed because they don't feel like the point system works and that people take advantage of it and do better. The scenario is that you almost come 1st but come 4th because the top 3 are truced against you.

The annoyance people have with the new system is that they can't use their rating abuse strategy. I'm ok with this since it will go away as people forget about the old strategy. From what I've seen overall people come away from the new games with much less complaints about rating no matter which place they're in.
Ryan wrote
at 9:08 AM, Sunday February 4, 2007 EST
Another point:

The real alternative to the current system is to only reward for winning. This would make the game true to the goal of dicewars: a game to conquer the map. This would also be a very clear way to adjust ratings.

The problem with this is that it eliminates the social aspect and trucing which I believe are a great part of the game.

The current system was an attempt at making the game more social with trucing by awarding points to other places. It in my opinion has failed because it rewards too much for trucing to the point that the main strategy for getting ahead is good truces.

The new system is an adjustment to the current system to reduce the weight put on truces and increase the weight on strategy and winning. I believe it accomplishes this.
Cyron wrote
at 4:28 PM, Sunday February 4, 2007 EST
Well I barely got a chance to test out the scoring system. I joined the test server and finally got a game, only to have one dickhead make jokes about suicide, something I've got personal experience with, and when I said it was below the belt, he just called me a liar. The rest of the room just sat around and watched the show.

I don't need that shit, so I won't be going back to the test server
StunnedFazer wrote
at 9:31 PM, Sunday February 4, 2007 EST
I'm not a huge fan of the new scoring system. Mostly because I'm one of those people who doesn't have a huge problem with 2nd/3rd place through inactivity.

I think the main problem people have with truces which require passivity is the "I deserved [X]th place but didn't get it" syndrome, which tends to generate a lot of whining &/or hard feelings.

Note to Cyron: People on the internets joke about: suicide, eating disorders, homosexuals, heterosexuals, your mother, your father, your sister, your brother, your appearance, assault, rape, etc.

I hope your head is screwed on straight nowadays, but if you "don't need that shit", i'd encourage you to avoid any part of the internet where you may have to talk to someone who doesn't know about your previous personal experience with suicide.
Cyron wrote
at 9:45 PM, Sunday February 4, 2007 EST
It's not the fact he brought up suicide, it's the fact he didn't give a shit when I told him it was a personal issue for me, and actually went so far as to say I was making it up.

I was evidently in the middle of a group of players who all knew each other, because no one else could be bothered to ask him to tone it down either, they just watched him bait me.

And the only reason it's an issue, is because there are so few players on the test server. I've been trying for weeks to get a game, and when I did, I fell in to that. I don't plan on doing that again, so I'll stay on the public server where the chance of running in to a single dickhead that can ruin my day is much reduced
Lindsay wrote
at 5:27 AM, Monday February 5, 2007 EST
"I was evidently in the middle of a group of players who all knew each other, because no one else could be bothered to ask him to tone it down either, they just watched him bait me."

That, or they know better than to react to such bait themselves.
KDice - Multiplayer Dice War
KDice is a multiplayer strategy online game played in monthly competitions. It's like Risk. The goal is to win every territory on the map.
CREATED BY RYAN © 2006
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