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Great game, but I'm retiring from Kdice. I do have a scoring suggestion.
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banjhakri wrote
at 8:29 AM, Monday January 29, 2007 EST
337 games later.
To Ryan and everyone else, Jay Bibby is right, it is the best online multi-player I've encountered. It rewards cunning and strategy. And I’ve gotten a lot of miles out of it. There is very little wrong with the system and I don’t agree with 95% of the suggestions out there. The ELO thing is fine, the chat is fine, the odds, simplicity rules in this game. I would have quit at game 20 if it wasn’t for the ranking system, the competitive aspect of the game is highly rewarding. When playing at the 1900 tables, with about 80% of the people all possessing a more-or-less equal level of skill, the only thing left to play for is points. There is no shame in this. But my reasons for hesitation in the beginning are my reasons for quitting now. In a word: COLLUSION. At first the whole political/diplomatic thing was fun, to decide when and who to ally with, to quickly counter alliances, to earn a reputation as a fair and equitable player. Diplomacy is fun, however, groveling is not. And that is what separates the highest ranked players from the rest. The ability to grovel their way from a 6th/7th place finish to 3rd/4th place. People stop playing the game and start hunkering down for a middle-place victory, trying to get a treaty with the dice leader in round 4 and getting it. People say, “hey, I didn’t attack you when I could have, so let me take 2nd with my 1 territory,� when they should have taken 7th a long time ago. Being ignored because there are bigger threats isn’t justification for 2nd place. I can usually tell where I should rank as soon as the game starts. I’m tired of seeing potential 3rd-5th place finishes turn to 7th because I refuse to say, “Please don’t kill me!� or “hey can I just hide out here in the corner? k thx.� I’m also tired of seeing a game have 7 player at round 20 with four of them holding 1-2 territories and arguing about who should be killed first! I have two solutions, the first would definitely bring me back to the game. I apologize if this has already been suggested: Punish protectionism/attrition. Reward aggression. My change to the scoring system: In additional to final place, make final score a function of average number of territories held placed into some equation against the number of rounds survived. This way, somebody who holds 1-2 territories after round one and is knocked out at round 2 gets a small negative score. Make people WANT to go out fast when they have a botched start. Similarly, somebody who holds onto 1 territory for 20 rounds gets a small negative score or worse. Somebody who puts up a good fight, holds onto 1st the majority of the game, and is overcome by opponents has the potential to still come out ahead. Permanent Alliances. Second, create a “permanent treaty� button. Though people wouldn’t have to use it, per se, I think they would. It would prevent attack between players with a treaty. The software would have to determine when a game stale-mated from boundaries and treaties. It should also populate a public message in the chat when a treaty has been offered and/or accepted. |
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NightShade wrote
at 9:00 PM, Monday January 29, 2007 EST Maybe things should be fixed so that getting, say, 4th, 5th, 6th, or 7th place has the exact same impact on your score?
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Ryan wrote
at 12:16 AM, Tuesday January 30, 2007 EST I'm going to be testing a new rating adjustment system maybe tomorrow.
The rating adjustment will be two fold: a Domination adjustment, and a Longevity adjustment. The Longevity adjustment is the same as the current adjustment. The Domination adjustment is based on how you rank measured by the maximum amount of territories you've had at the time you're knocked out. Maximum is for first for taking all territories making the first place get the most points for longevity and domination. This also reduces the number of points gained from a player with only 2 territories but comes in second. Also, there will be a domination adjustment for winning and a decrease for loosing. So really this adjustment system is threefold but I'm bundling this winning/non winning in the domination category to simplify things. So, for example, if first place gets +40 rating now, in the new system he will get: L: +40 D1: +40 D2: +40 divided by 3 = +40 Suppose second place had a maximum of 4 territories coming in last: L: +20 D1: -20 D2: -7 divided by 3 = -2 And a player who came in 3rd, but 2nd for max territories would get: L: +10 D1: +20 D2: -7 divided by 3 = +7 These are just rough numbers and I will test this on a test server first but their aim is to make a rating adjustment that rewards 1st place more, eases the loss for 6th and 7th due to bad luck, does not reward small allied countries as much. I'll let you know when a test server is up. |
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THE Z3 wrote
at 1:04 AM, Tuesday January 30, 2007 EST Wow! Awesome, this should be very interesting.
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aixo wrote
at 1:15 AM, Tuesday January 30, 2007 EST Hey Ryan - I agree!
I´m a hugh friend of diplomcy - and this new system will change the rules, but it won´t negotiate the diplomacy part... I´m looking forward to the next kdice-sandbox! Be welcome back... I hoped you enyoed your holidays... better then ryan_ ... |
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54321 wrote
at 2:38 PM, Tuesday January 30, 2007 EST Seems great! I like it.
"the maximum amount of territories you've had at the time you're knocked out" I don't really understand what that means. Is it simply the maximum of territories: e.g. you spread in first round? Or No. of territories in your last round? What score would the first round spreader get, coming out last? Or perhaps 2nd with two territories? |
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East wrote
at 11:24 PM, Tuesday January 30, 2007 EST No_Wolf:
"C'mon people, imagination. Banjhakri, best exit yet. Overlast, good for you. Fuzzycat, unpopular and old. Z3dd, it's not, it's really not. East, keep your pennies, we've no need for them." Do you think you're clever or something? How about instead of criticizing what everyone says, you offer up a nugget of your own wisdom? I suppose that may be too much to ask from someone at your echelon of intelligence. |
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East wrote
at 11:27 PM, Tuesday January 30, 2007 EST As far as the max territories issue is concerned, why not make it easier for everyone (including Ryan) and have a running calculation of the average number of (connected?) territories held in the game. The same rules would apply as stated above I guess.
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Lindsay wrote
at 5:54 AM, Wednesday January 31, 2007 EST The only problem with the idea of the "dice leader" rewarding aggression and punishing inaction is that it's in his worst interest to do so. If you know someone who has one territory is just going to sit there for the next seven rounds, and someone who has 6 territories is out to split you, you're not going to touch the single nonaggressive territory until you've neutralized your real threats.
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Grunvagr wrote
at 9:40 AM, Wednesday January 31, 2007 EST linds, you have a VERY good point
yesterday for shits and giggles while on the test server I got down to 1 land and instead of killing me we did a little science project the leader by far spared me with 1 dice on one land in the corner and killed everyone else handing me a first - cuz we were all curious what the result would be I got -6points. Under the current system I would have gotten ELO points for 2nd and probably gained 30 or so, but I got -6, + points for ending position but -15 for dominance or whatever that factor is called. It was accurate, because under the old system you can carry someone to free points, and when I was carried it ended up hurting me I think. Because my avg size before that was fairly high. (I lost an 8v7 defense and then teal ran free over the rest of me) point being though - like you say, you can PUNISH people by NOT killing them. Mercy can be so rude! :) So I think the new system is totally cool... but now when you flag perhaps you are OUT? IE if you flag then you END at that place and you exit with whatever points you got. Either that, or some other method where you cannot attack anymore but your score doesnt get penalized horribly if someone PURPOSELY spares you so as to hurt your points. (this makes sense in my head) |
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Grunvagr wrote
at 9:41 AM, Wednesday January 31, 2007 EST woops, the leader handed me 2nd place (typo)
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